&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;UWC HEARING - DAY 1 - MONDAY 5 AUGUST 1996



CASE NO:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;CT/00724

VICTIM:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;SIWANANA CHAKATHA [husband]

NATURE OF VIOLENCE:&#9;&#9;SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE

TESTIMONY FROM:&#9;&#9;NOLIBAZISA FLORENCE CHAKATHA



CHAIRPERSON: ... and to express our appreciation to you for your willingness to come to the Commission. You have already met with some of our staff, we have talked with you and listened to you already but now you are here in front of the Commission, in front of the audience and a much wider audience throughout the country. We are very-very grateful to you, we understand that the story that you are going to tell is a very sad one. And full of pain and it's not easy. We do understand that, we hope that you will feel as relaxed and as comfortable as is possible in the circumstances. Before we proceed and hear your story, I'd be very grateful if you'd stand for the taking of the oath.

NOLIBAZISA FLORENCE CHAKATHA&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states&#9;&#9;

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much please be seated. Ms Chakatha you I think know that it is our practice to ask one of the Commissioners to assist every witness without interfering with them but trying to be of some help. In this instance I will be doing that with you, and I want to ask you please to tell us by way of beginning of who you are and something about your family and where you live before you tell us what happened on that awful day in 1990.

DR BORAINE: You may begin. --- My name is Ms Chakatha I am

living in Site B, in NY05. I have two children and I live

with them in my house. 

&#9;Thank you very much, now on 25th of October 1990 your husband was participating, taking part in a march organized by Site B residence, is that right? --- Yes it's right.

&#9;Now you weren't at the march but many people have told you what happened, can you tell us what you think happened on that day please. --- Yes I can tell you. This was on the 25th of October it was during the week and people had not gone to work. This march started at Philani, proceeding through the main road to Site C. And the aim of the march was to take some papers, many papers to Hoza. They marched down the main road, taking the papers with the grievances to Hoza. When then were at - just before they got to Site C next to the robot they - they saw some pigs. And vans - and sedan cars that belonged to the police, then that's where my husband was shot over the bridge. He was shot because there were alleged that he - it was alleged that he had something that he was hiding. Whereas he had a jacket, a heavy jacket on. So he fell and the friend who was standing next to him, asked the white men who had killed him, what he had seen or what he had found and this white man said he had found nothing and my - the friend said kill me too and shoot me. Then the march proceeded, and the others turned and came to me to report and told me that Siwanana had died. This was painful to me because this happened in my absence. It was a week that I was at home, away in the rural area and it - my husband left me in a shack where I still live with my two children.

&#9;Thank you Ms Chakatha. Just a couple of questions to help

us, first do you have any memory of what the grievances were

which prompted or made them decide to go on a march, what was their grievances. --- I still remember people were saying we should pay rent for our shacks, so those grievances were based on that.

&#9;Thank you, tell us a little bit about your husband, can you remember how old he was when he was shot? --- I can't remember how old he was then otherwise he was born in 1949.

&#9;Thank you, that helps, can you tell us was he working at the time when he was taking part in the march, did he take a day off from work or was he unemployed? --- My husband was a worker at [indistinct] on this particular day of the march, people did not go to work.

&#9;Thank you, was your - your husband obviously was concerned about the grievances and joined with his colleagues and comrades was he very politically involved at all. Did he belong to a particular party or organization? --- Yes he was a member of the ANC as most people were in that march.

&#9;Thank you, you mentioned that he was wearing a long jacket, is this the jacket that's know as 'Dlamini' in Xhosa? --- Yes it is.

&#9;Is it a fairly traditional jacket that people wear why do they call it 'Dlamini'? --- Yes it's a jacket that is normally worn by the people and my husband liked it, this jacket.

&#9;All right and you say that when his friends were their names Spokes and Mabija? Were those the two that were with him? --- Yes.

&#9;And they - did they - when they challenged the policeman

after he had shot your husband and you said the policeman thought

that there may be something that he was carrying, did they - did they look and see if there was anything under the 'Dlamini'? --- They did search but they didn't find anything underneath this coat, 'Dlamini'. 

&#9;And the policeman was he sorry for what he had done? --- From what I hear from his friends, they say he felt bad after he had fallen, especially when the friends asked him to look for what he said he had hidden underneath the jacket.

&#9;Did you ever meet the policeman? --- No I had never met him.

&#9;Do you know - do you know his name? --- His name is known to my husband's friends. So if we talk to your husband's friends who were there, they can give us that name? --- Yes they can.

&#9;Thank you, can you tell us, was there any Court case or any inquiry that you know about following your husband's death? --- There never was any investigation, and nothing happened about the death of my husband, no investigation whatsoever.

&#9;So let me be clear on this until today you have had no word as to why your husband was killed, who killed him and what happened at any investigation, there was none. --- No - no up to day, I have not had anything.

&#9;Now this was five years ago almost, well more than five years ago. It was after the changes had started in this country. Which makes it doubleley tragic that your husband was shot. What do you - how do you cope today, how do you manage. Do you have a pension, do you work, how do you manage? --- I am not working, I just a grant for my children which is minimal amount, I get

R120-00 for each child. So I get R240-00 and this makes it

difficult for me to cloth this children. I use this money to buy food, and my fear is that we live in a shack and if the shack could burn, then I would never be able to built a house for myself.

&#9;Ja, I can understand that. How old are the children please? --- One is twelve years old she was born in 1983 and the second one is eight years old.

&#9;Thank you very much, before I ask my colleagues if they would like to ask you any further questions, let me ask you if there is anything else you would like to add, or any request that you would like to make to the Commission. --- There is a request that I would like to put forward which is that I should get a decent living please and secondly that my children should be educated like other children who still have fathers. Because the money that I get as a grant is too small and I can't do anything with it. And I can't even get employment.

&#9;Thank you we have heard what you have said, let me ask my colleagues if they have any further questions or comments. mr Potgieter.

MR POTGIETER: Ms Chakatha what are the ages of your two children? --- One is twelve years old and the second one is eight years old. And are they boys or girls? --- The first one who is twelve years old, is a girl the second one who's name is Sacunchi is a boy.

&#9;Have you spoken to an advice office or a lawyer or an organization in connection with the death of your husband a possible claim? --- No it's the first time that I talk about this

here to you in this hall. I've never approached anyone about the matter. 

&#9;Thank you very much for that information.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Chakatha can I just ask you one last question. Your - the friend who were with your husband on that march when he was killed mentioned that the policeman concerned was upset and felt that he had shot someone, who he shouldn't have shot at all, and he wasn't carrying any weapon. If that policeman were to approach you today, what would you feel and what you say? --- Because of the pain I am bearing, I really don't know what I would do. On the other hand I wish I could see him so that he can help me with my children to bring up my children.

&#9;Thank you very much Ms Chakatha, you have lost - I beg your pardon, I am sorry Ms Burton would like to ask to ask a question.

MS BURTON: Thank you Chairperson it's perhaps not so much a question but you refer Ms Chakatha that day of the march was just a few days, a week I think after the attack on the home of the Chairperson of the Khayelitsha Civic, Mr Mapongwana and everybody in Site B area was very angry. Did you know about that, I know you were in the Transkei? --- I heard about it at the time I was in Transkei.

&#9;And then on the same day that your husband was killed, the records show that maybe another eight or ten people were also killed that day. Did you know about that - did you know about that? --- Yes I heard about that too, and I also got a paper. 

&#9;So when we try to find out more about your husband's death and about anything that can be done to help you, we will also try to find out what happened to those other people, so that we can paint a picture of the things that happened on that day to your husband and to other members of the community as well. 

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Chakatha I want to thank you again for coming before the Commission. We have heard your story of lost, of grieve but also we have heard about your struggle to look after your two children without a father, without a husband. We have heard your request to the commission and we will certainly convey those requests and do as much as we possibly can against the background of many-many-many request that come to us from around the country. It's impossible to measure the pain that you have endured, and we hope that by coming here today, it will take something of the burden away from you and the ache in the heart, because it begins to be shared by the Commission and by those who have heard you. We wish you much strength and ask that God will give you the courage and the guidance to continue as you look after your own children and yourself. Thank you very much for coming.



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